dream? 9 % of you said yes, 7% of you said no. tomorrow night, we will have a 99er on the program who says the last thing she would ever give up would be her vote. that is the ed show, i'm ed schultz. for more information on the one nation rally go to wegoted.com. "hardball" with chris matthews starts now. we will see you tomorrow night. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, some real time with bill maher.

plus, do you remember this moment from yesterday, cnbc town hall with president obama? . quite frankly, i'm exhausted. i'm exhausted of defending you, defending your administration, defending the mantle of change that i voted for. >> right. >> and deeply disappointed with where we are right now. >> the woman talking truth to the president is velma hart and she is why democrats could be facing big losses this november. velma hart joins us later in the show to talk about how president obama has failed to meet his challenges and her challenges on what it will take to win back the enthusiasm of voters like her. and the new maccar thinkism. we heard it here on "hardball" last night from the values voters summit, the attacks on muslims. and the claim that some house, president obama wants to impose shari ya law, islamic law in the united states, you know, cutting off hands, stoning, that sort of thing. republicans have selling this scare. should some people be worried? plus, just say. no late this afternoon, senate

republicans voted down an effort to repeal the ban on gays serving openly in the u.s. military. we will get into the politics of that story and who wins by that vote coming november 2nd and who, if anybody, loses. let me finish tonight with a diabolic talk of newt gingrich, who is, day after day, raising hatred, anger and fear with all his craft and wyle. we start with bill maher, the host of "real time" from hbo. watch you on "real time." let's listen. >> christine, if you are watching, i created you. you need to come on this show. if you don't come on this show, i'm going to show a clip every week. i'm only one who has them. i ordered them. let me show this clip this is from "politically incorrect" i don't know what year, like 1997 or something. >> you are a witch? >> i dabbled in witchcraft. i never joined a coffin. >> wait, you were a witch? >> yes, she s. >> i never joined a coffin. >> wait a minute.

i love this you are a witch, go on halloween -- >> i was a witch. >> wait that is exactly why. >> i used to be a witch. >> because i dabbled into witchcraft. i hung around people who were doing these things. >> having fun? >> i'm not making this stuff up. i know what they told me they do. >> what do they do? >> one of my dates -- >> whoa, whoa, whoa. i want to hear -- >> one of my first dates with a witch was on a satanic altar, i didn't know it. i mean there is a little blood there and stuff like that. >> first date was a satanic altar? >> a little movie and had a midnight pick snuck. >> let's have a movie and a sacrifi sacrifice? >> the candidate for the united states senator from delaware, republican party. here is her response to you, bill, for her thoughts, let's listen this is christine o'donnell going back at you. >> bill wanted ratings, i gave him ratings. i was in high school. who didn't have interesting friends in high school? >> she said she was there to boost your ratings.

>> my turn? >> yes, your turn. >> well, it's funny to me, chris, because this is the woman who claimed on another one of our "politically incorrect" episodes from the '90s that she would not lie, even in the case of hiding anne frank in her attic. eddie i zard confronted her and said, really, hitler was at the door and you had anne frank in the attic, you wouldn't lie? and she said, no god would find a watch funny to me schull wouldn't lie in that instance but she wouldly to get me ratings? that in itself is a lie, i guess she is a liar, i like her, i don't think she is a meaningful liar. i like christine a lot. i hope she comes on our show i will be kind to her. >> why you think she did bring up the whole fact of satanism and having gone to some altar of a satanic altar with a date one night? what other motive besides boosting your ratings could she have had? i'm trying to develop into her thinking here. >> well -- well, i think she was

always a very forthright person. there is one thing i will say about christine, she is very sincere. there are some people who you feel like they are just saying this because that is what the people want to hear, not christine. i think she really believes everything she says. and devout people love this story of redemption, love it when you are with the develop and throw them off from jesus? remember bush, he was drunk when he was 40 and wungd the beach with billy gramm or something and became a guy who went on to other things. >> i like redemption, too, let's look at the insane stuff she play is problems defending. it was on fox, 2007. bill o'reilly, let's listen. american scientific companies are cross breeding humans and animals and coming one mize with fully functioning human brains. >> i don't know what to make of that are there mize? i know elephants are afraid mice but must be afraid of mice with people's brains in them?

what is she talking about? i never heard of mice with human brains in them. >> yeah. it was a little unfortunate. i guess she read the article wrong. i don't know, when i saw this coverage of the witch stuff, i was laughing yesterday. because that is not really important to the election. it is just a side shock as you would say. it was funny. i don't think it should hurt her. it was something she was doing in high school. but when you think about scientific issues facing this nation, people could be really helped by stem cell research. there are 37 republican candidates for the senate. not one believes global warming is real and manmade, except for one, mike castle, the one she defeated in delaware.

>> they don't believe in evolution, sign, they believe it's elitist thinking. >> yes, absolutely. i mean, there's lots of people who i like personally, who i don't think should be in congress. unfortunately, many are already in congress. but there's a difference between being a nice person and being fit for office. >> well, you have a problem endorsing some of these people. i want you to respond to this. here's joe miller when he was caught by chris wallace with a question that wasn't a curve ball. it was really a fastball down the middle. he's asking a reasonable question of the newly nominated senate candidate from alaska on sunday morning. here is the question. >> do you think that sarah palin is qualified to be president and would you like to see her run? >> you know, i'm running a u.s. senate race right now in the state of alaska. that's what i'm focused on. i've been asked about various candidates throughout the country. that's not my role to comment on

those candidacies. >> this is within two weeks of being endorsed out of nowhere and made the nominee of the party for the united states senate. he wouldn't give her an inch, this guy. >> but i think, chris, that this is actually very indicative, because sarah palin just pulled, i think, 7% of the vote at the values summit. okay. if she can only get 7% of that crowd, maybe her popularity, her candidacy, is all a myth. if she can't get people like joe miller, one of her wingnuts from alaska to endorse her, if she can't get more than 7% of the values voters, maybe her base isn't those people. maybe it's the media, which has nothing better to cover or does actually have better stuff to cover, but would rather go to sarah palin for news. >> that's maybe both true. the latest poll of republicans on approval has her the highest approval of any republican figure. she's at 76%. now, maybe the question is what

do they approve about her or for her? maybe it's job approval for someone without a job. i don't know. but she is at 76%, bill. >> well, if that's among republicans, as you say, you also have to consider that 52% of republicans think the president of the united states is sympathetic to terrorists who want to impose sharia law on this country. so, just -- that's who you're dealing with. that's the group that's coming from. >> what do you make of newt gingrich making that charge? >> you know, i mean, i was never a big fan of newt gingrich when he was in office. i have no idea why the media is still knocking on his door now that he is not in office. i think he is perhaps the most used guest on the sunday talk shows. what's sad is that newt used to be the thinker in that party. he was like the trotsky.

this is the thinker? this is the reader? well, you know, in the land of midgets, pigmies cast tall shadows. >> he thinks the president is thinking like a kenya. here's bill clinton this morning on "good morning america." here he is, president bill clinton. let's listen. >> the american people can elect whomever they want, but she served not a full time term as governor. we don't know if she's going to run for president. >> what's your gut on that? >> but i think, i think she's clearly a public figure who is -- who speaks well and persuasively to the people who listen to her and she's somebody to be reckoned with. >> there's the president on george stephanopoulos this morning. he's a good judge of horse flesh, as we say. he's not underestimating her, bill.

>> horse flesh? let's not go back to that craze. and leave monica lewinsky out of this. actually, he made a very good point. she was the governor of the state with no people for half a term. there has to be a little higher bar, i think, for running for office than just having a facebook page. and by the way, speaking of that, you know, there are four states in this country, delaware is another one of them. alaska is one. i think vermont and maybe north dakota, forgive me i get that wrong, that are so tiny that they have two senators and only one congressman, yet they have two senators from delaware and alaska representing like a few hundred thousand people and one senator from my state of california represents 18 million. i know the tea baggers are on that issue, so sometimes, even a broken clock is right.

>> they don't like popular election of senators, but i think they still like the little states to get their too big senators. let me ask you about jimmy carter. they -- they don't want the people to pick their senators. they want the state legislatures to pick the senators. let me ask you about former president carter. as you know, i worked for him once. he's an interesting guy. what do you make of his latest statements about being different than the former presidents? >> i love jimmy carter. jimmy carter is so honest and out there. sometimes, i hear people say, oh, obama, his term could become like jimmy carter's. yeah, i wish. he did some real bold things, like returning the panama canal. can you see a president trying to do that today? or getting on national television and telling the american people that they're lazy and they're using too much energy? remember that speech? i like jimmy carter. i think this country needs a lot

more of that forthright honesty. go, jimmy. that's the great thing about being old. you don't give a rat's ass anymore. >> thank you. i love getting on your show once in a while. "real time" airs friday nights at 10:00 on hbo. no commercials. coming up, why is newt gingrich talking about why liberals are wants to impose sharia law? he is saying this stuff. why is he doing it? we get the latest polls on key november election races. we're going to check the "hardball" scoreboard when we come back. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

another top-level member of president obama's economic team is leaving. a senior administration official confirms to nbc news that lawrence summers, the director of the national economic council, is leaving at the end of this year. and he is the thinker behind it

all. cnbc's john harwood reports that summers will return to harvard. deet part chur of summers will leave tim geithner as the only original top-tier member of president obama's economic team. "hardball" is back after this. ♪ every timl, it feels so goo ♪ well, it feels so good [ female announcer ] new charmin ultra soft has an ultra-cushiony design that's soft and more absorbent. so you can use four times less versus the leading value brand. new charmin ultra soft.

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innovation for safety. innovation for all. time now for the "hardball" scoreboard to see where the races stand tonight. we begin tonight in west virginia and it's shocking number. popular governor joe mansion, a democrat, now trailing in the race for senate republican, john raese. even though most voters in west virginia approve of the job mansion has done as governor, a majority say they want republicans controlling congress. now to wisconsin where the news isn't good for senator russ feingold. the ppp shows feingold trailing

republican ron johnson, get this, by 11 points, 52-41 and an update on the big governor's race in california. jerry brown has a five-point lead over meg whitman, 57-42, in the ppp poll and she's obviously trying perhaps unsuccessfully to buy that race. muslim bashing right now is one of the themes of the value voters summit this past weekend and newt gingrich leads the way in whipping up anti-islamic fevor in this country. here he is stoking fear in what he calls the threat of sharia law. >> i have no problem with the mosques in new york city that are peaceful and obey american law, but i am totally opposed to any effort to impose sharia on the united states and we should have -- we should have a federal law that says under no circumstances, in any jurisdiction in the united states, will sharia be used by any court to apply to any

judgment made about american law. and we should make clear to justice breyer and justice kagan, who both seem confused on this topic, that no judge will remain in office who tries to use sharia law to interpret the american constitution. >> is bashing the muslim religion become the new mccarthyism in this country? the "washington post" reporter gene robinson wrote about it this morning. i'm amazed. i don't know what to say. why is he saying this stuff? >> you know, for political gain. he thinks that muslim bashing is a winner. that's the only reasonable explanation. it's an absurd thing to say. a federal law that no court would impose sharia law. >> like whipping, caning, beheading, stoning? >> as if that's a remote possibility.

as if that could happen under the constitution. it's ridiculous on its face. >> but why -- newt has had a reputation as having an iq. he doesn't have a drinking problem like joe mccarty did. what is his excuse for saying things that aren't true. sonia sotomayor, supreme court justice, racist. shirley sherrod, racist. the president thinks like a kenyan. these comments keep getting higher and higher on the crazy score from a man who's not crazy. is it evil? >> i think two things. one, i think he's not -- nobody's going to get to the right of newt on these issues. and so, you know, whoever's out there waving the kind of judeo-christian, white american banner, newt's not going to be outwaved. the second thing is, i think that on an intellectual level,

perhaps newt buys into the class of civilization? >> is this how a guy in his third marriage does it? you find some common ground from the far right, you show you hate as much they do, and, therefore, you might be a good, christian gentleman? >> perhaps. i'm also against the position of icelandic law, all other countries. i'm on newt's side. icelandic laws, russian laws, we should not apply them in united states courts. he is underestimated by a lot of people on how seriously he could be a runner for the republican nomination. i think he's going to run and if you think about how this 2012 election is going to break down, there are going to be party regulars. mitt romney being the de facto front-runner of that group. the other side, the people trying to corral, some of which

is native, some of which is xenophobic, does think the president is a muslim, some of which is not comfortable with an african-american president. that group -- >> somebody's been working and living off the federal payroll for a good part of his life. >> look, newt gingrich is a hero to the republican grass roots. there is not a politician, apart from sarah palin, who can go where the tea party rally is strong, and get thousands of people, they think he's a hero. >> people got to get used to hearing what they're hearing from this guy because it's so weird. here he is a couple of months ago bashing the left, as he calls it, for not taking the sharia threat seriously. >> how we don't have some kind of mom. on the left, that sharia is a direct, mortal threat to virtually every value that the left has. it's really one of the most interesting historical questions. >> you know, i think there was a communist threat. it was smaller than mccarthy admitted.

harry dexter white, elizabeth bentley, some people were agent. he saw hundreds and hundreds of people in the state department. is this guy taking a weird case in new jersey where the judge thought the guy had a mindset about his relationship with his wife and justified his behavior? he was overruled by appellate court and turned it into some threat? that is your column. >> that case to which you refer was a family court judge. obviously, not the brightest bulb in the judicial chandelier, who made a bone-headed decision and was reversed. >> even he didn't recognize. he said this moroccan guy married to a moroccan women, thought he wasn't committing a crime to his wife, raped her or whatever, he thought it wasn't a crime. it doesn't matter what he

thinks, what his religion is. rape is a crime. almost a capital crime and we're going to condemn it. >> exactly. >> what's newt talking about? >> good question. he's talking about this gigantic threat of sharia law, that doesn't exist. stealth jihadis working, as we speak, to make a movement. >> this is their hiding under the bed thing is going to work? >> i am surprised when i am in the country how few people this resonates with?. there are a lot of people when you say, how do you feel about the ground zero mosque, if you're in iowa and people say, i don't give a damn about the ground zero mosque. i care about my job. on a national level, i think most people are totally switched they wonder what these grice talking about. >> be careful here because this is a cultural piece. when they give these rallies and they're pretty wild in the mall or anywhere else, we want our

country back. they're not talking about unemployment and real problems. they're talking about somebody, forces of evil or whatever, have taken over their country. they're talking about sharia, islamic people, african-american people. >> they're talking about the first african-american president, who has the name barack hussein obama and whom they are painting as alien and foreign, and you know, dangerous person. >> and his father is channelling him to fight the british oppression. here he is. in the "national review." i used to grow up reading that magazine. it was serious and very antibias, by the way --

he kobd us into thinking he is an american. he is really a kenyan, guy over there, thinking like that against the british oppressors, who he now sees as the white ruling class from wall street. that's the way newt's selling it. >> part of the thing for a lot of these people who believe -- they said, i want our country back, they're talking more generally about the liberal conspiracy to take over and conspiracy to take over and teach -- hand out condoms in the schools. >> good old american left. >> homosexuals in the military are trying to get in. this is a new way for them to hook in to the same cultural animosities that the republicans played on successfully as far back as the '60s. >> they don't need it. they got the key to the door. it's unemployment. thank you, guys. i got some real pros here, by the way. i am humbled.

up next, alaska senate candidate lisa murkowski's running as a write-in candidate, but if they can't spell her name -- apparently, the judge is going to help the voters. you're watching "hardball." we are back to hanging chads on msnbc. we will be right back.

back to "hardball." now to "sideshow." remember to spell check. lisa murkowski has a write-in campaign. she wants voters to write in her name on the ballot on november 2nd to vote for her. that means people need to know how to write her name. look at the bottom of the screen. murkowski is missing an "o." the senator might want to start with her own staff to make this work. up next, former president jimmy carter went on "the daily show" with jon stewart. he got into the christine o'donnell act.

>> had it not been for that dissatisfaction with washington, i would not have been elected, but i'm not completely compatible with the tea party. i haven't been involved in witchcraft. >> right. the only thing i would say to that is you're only 85, give it time. >> and president carter wasn't the only ex-president hitting late-night television. here's bill clinton on the "late show with david letterman" talking about his new son-in-law. >> if i were in your position, here's how i would want this. i'd want him to be a little scared. is he? >> i don't think so. he was good enough to come and ask for my permission, however. >> oh. >> which i appreciated. >> so, now, you've balanced out the family. two women, two men. >> yeah, i finally have a chance.

that was -- my main goal was to have a chance. hillary wanted this marriage because she wants to be a grandmother more than she wanted to be president. next up, dirt ball. new york's fight for governor is getting very dirty. look at this photoshop flier that carl paladino put out out andrew cuomo. in response -- when attorney general cuomo got a look at the ad, he blew the whistle. he said it was not constructive. up next, in yesterday's cnbc town hall, velma hart told president obama she's exhausted from having to defend him. unhappy with the way things stand now. she represents thousands of obama supporters no longer fired up about his presidency. we'll meet her and find out what

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hello, everyone, i'm millissa rehberger hoocher is what is happening. one of president obama's top economic advisers is stepping down. larry summers will be the third high-profile member of the economic team to leave this year. meanwhile no big changes from the federal reserve a meeting today produced more words of concern at the slow pace of recovery. the arresting d.a. calls it corruption on steroids. eight people were arrested in bell, california, accused of bilking the city of more than $5 million in excessive salaries and illegal loans. the pentagon is now confirming that nine americans were killed in the crash of a

black hawk helicopter in southern afghanistan. meanwhile, top military commanders say the taliban is run out of money and ammunition in the northern part of the country and could be close to giving up. and hackers unleashed an attack on twitter today them caused pornographic websites to open when winn mousing over web links. now back to "hardball." quite frankly, i'm exhausted. i'm exhausted of defending you, defending your adminsitration your -- >> velma hart gave voice to the frustrations of many middle class americans. she's the national finance director and cfo for amvets, an veteran's organization. she served in the army reserve for almost a decade. welcome. >> thank you so much.

>> you know, what you did, i thought, yesterday was speak clearly about american life. when you talked about how you used to have to have hot dogs and beans as the main dinner because it was inexpensive and you fear you may have to go back to that and one kid heading towards college, i think you captured the reality of a lot of americans. >> i appreciate your saying that because that's my reality. i'm worried. i know i shouldn't be. i should have confidence in our leaders to get us through these trying times, but i'm getting a little anxious and the other thing i'm concerned about is a lot of other people are getting anxious. because they are getting anxious, anxious people do desperate things and i'd like for us to avoid that. >> do you think the president of the united states has in his office the power to dramatically reduce the unemployment rate?

>> single handedly, absolutely not. this is a democracy for a reason and i respect that. however, he is our chief and the hard questions have to go to him. i deeply respect the president. i appreciate his contributions, the progress we've made to date, but i'm troubled. and, you know, i hope at some point, even though i knew i had to defend him for a long time and why i voted for him and i was good with that, i hoped at some point, it would become easier to defend him and it's still very hard and may get harder by design. >> i want you to grade his answer here. you were the one asking it. here's the answer to your question. he talked about what he had done in terms of credit card issues as president. let's listen. >> if you have a credit card, which i assume you do -- >> no. >> now, you really -- now you're showing how responsible you are. >> well, then he goes and talks about his achievements. he goes more into it here. >> as a consequence of the changes we made, the credit card companies can't increase your interest rate without notifying you.

if your child, heaven forbid, had a pre-existing condition. before i took office, you were out of luck in terms of being able to get health insurance for that child. there are a whole host of things that we've put in place that do make your life better. >> what did you make of that, because you were saying times were tough and he talked about the reality of life as you know it in this country, and he was telling you stuff you didn't know, but do you think it was a helpful exchange in that way? >> the changes he outlined, credit card changes, the scholarship changes, those are positive changes, they just won't affect me at this time. they don't affect me at this time. he also -- i appreciated the fact he allowed me to joke with him. of course i have a credit card. is there an american that doesn't have a credit card? the thing that i was left with in the answer is that those are great things, mr. president, and no question, you've made progress and we appreciate that, however, we want to feel it.

we need to feel t >> what was he supposed to say? we have almost 9.6% unemployment rate. is he supposed to say it's better than you think, it's coming down two points next month? anything that would make you happy? >> he was very candid and honest about the fact that he knows times are hard and he was not there to defend how difficult things were and i appreciated that because i think that's the honest answer. i think the opening for me was is this the new reality? and i don't think he touched -- i did. >> that's a great question. my wife calls that the reset, and she says we may be in for a reset, people hoping to have a certain life for their kids have to downgrade that. that is because of the economic reality in the world. >> one of the questions i've been asked is velma, you appear to be doing pretty good. two kids in private schools, you have a job and your husband has a job. aren't you doing pretty well? and the thing i have to continue to say, it's all relative.

there are compromises we make to send our children to private schools. i'd like a new car. i'm sure other people would like a new car. my car is having issues. but we delayed that and it's a deliberate decision, compromise for our family. we want to invest in our children's future. there are other things we're doing and making decisions every day just like everybody else. we are looking at our 401(k) plans and determining how much we can truly invest. we're looking at the tax bill for our house and seeing the accumulated value of that drop. >> what do you think the government can do, the president of the united states, democracy, that he could be doing to reduce dramatically the unemployment rate? how does he reduce it dramatically? his first term, maybe his only term that is the question he doesn't know the answer to. do you? >> i absolutely don't know the answer to that. i think someone said yesterday that that was one of the questions that they had and they don't know the absolute answer to that.

they don't note magic positi position -- potion for that one. but i think it's necessary because that's the way we're going to build consumer confidence. that's the way things like the stimulus will work because when consumers are confident and they're not fearful, they'll spend and they'll invest in the economy. >> it's a vicious circle. as long as the unemployment rate is around 10, snob confident. we can give them all the speeches in the world. >> what's important to us, chris, is that the organization i work for, serves veterans, we're at war. we're bringing veterans home all the time coming home maimed sometimes or from a normal tour and they can't find employment, they can't find housing. they can't protect their families. . thank you for serving. >> thank you for saying that. i appreciate that. >> thank you. velma hart. i think it's great. i think it helped the president to see the clear, confident voice of people talking to him. he is surrounded in the white house biopeople. >> i want to say for the record i am a supporter and i believe

in the vision. and i'm hoping he is going to come through. i have great faith in him and i think he will. senate republicans block a vote on repealing don't ask don't tell. only got 53 votes. as you know, it takes 60. we'll get to the politics of that one when we return. no republicans voted for repeal. this is "hardball," only on msnbc.

national journal has a new poll number out that gives you an idea of how toxic the political climate is. nearly half of all americans, 49% of americans say they admire political leaders who refuse to compromise. among republicans, the number who don't like compromise is up to 62%. 52% say they don't like politicians willing to make compromise. it gives you a sense of why the all or nothing attitude of today's tea party-driven republican party has the momentum heading into november.

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welcome back to "hardball." today, republicans voted down an effort to repeal don't ask, don't tell. but why did harry reid bring it to vote now when he didn't have the votes? what are the politics of play today? alex nicholson is founder of the nation's largest organization of gay and lesbian troops and veterans. josh gerstein browser politico.

first question, the big one. why did it go down? >> because senator reid essentially made it unpalatable for republicans. >> what was the poison bill? -- the poison pill? >> i think the poison pill was not allowing any republican amendments on it. he says it's because i believe he doesn't want republicans screwing with some of the other provisions. we think however, that senator reid was under a lot of pressure to bring this bill up. he brought it up, but so that it would fail and republicans would be able to be blamed. >> who was pushing to bring it up? >> our community was. we put a lot of pressure on him. did a lot of lobbying, a lot of organization. i think it was under a lot of other pressure from other organizations as well, but also significant pressure from those in his own party to not bring it up before the midterm elections. >> let me go to josh for a political assessment. a complete analysis. did he bring this up just to get votes to save his seat in

nevada? i notice he's got a big gender gap. it's about? women tend to be supportive of gay issues, gay opportunities and rights. is this to jack up the women vote in his campaign to get reelected in a very close call out there? >> i don't think that's the reason. i think that's the reason he brought this up in connection with the dream act, the immigration provision he wanted to tack on here. so this became a vehicle for that. and in terms of constituency he needs to appeal to out in nevada, the latinos, the hispanic vote out there could absolutely critical. and he thought this was a way to get their measure up and show them the democrats, including him were in their corner. that's another group that has been disaffected from the democratic party in the last year or so. >> well, that's the question i have. the commission report coming out of the military later this year. why not wait for the commission report? >> it's not necessary to wait for the commission report. the amendment as it is currently designed, the deal that we struck completely respects the study, the comprehensive review working group. it won't even go into effect until well after the commission. >> but this is the cart before

the horse. shouldn't you have the vote after you see the information? why have the information presented to you if you don't think it's relevant? >> the thing to remember -- >> do you know whoa i am saying? why have a study by the military if you don't think it's relevant. >> i'm sorry, you have a thought here? go ahead. >> there is a very simple reason for that which is that the people who advocate repeal are worried that after december, nothing much gets done in december. so we're talking about next year, and they won't have the votes anymore. so the idea was to put in sort of time-bomb conditional repeal that could be acted on by the pentagon and the administration next year when there may be no votes or no desire to take this issue up at all. >> so they thought they could get the vote in principle this time, and have it acted on perhaps in a lame duck as well, right? >> i think they -- well, part of this would have had to be brought up in a lame duck in terms of a conference committee report. but they're concerned even in a lame duck they might have trouble moving this. even senators like russ feingold say they oppose lame duck

legislation. so they could be even further away in terms of votes from getting this done in a lame duck. >> what i'm looking at is no republicans voted for this. not the two senators from maine, not the two people open to the idea of it, nobody. it lost a bunch of democrats today. what do we make of that? only 53 out of 59 democrats. >> i think mark pryor and blanche lincoln were at the top of our lists to worry about. i think had a couple of republicans voted with us, had it been palatable for them to vote with us, they certainly would have been on board. keep in mind we had the votes lined up. we had them lined up. we had commitments implicit or explicit -- >> but you're seven short. we say short because harry reid would have flipped the other way. >> harry reid was more procedural. we firmly believe susan collins would have voted with us, dick lugar, we believe george voinovich and lincoln and pryor would have voted with us as well. the important thing to keep in mind about the study like you were talking about it was never

intended to inform the legislative process. it was always meant to be and sold to us as a wholly internal study for the dod to identify issues. >> let me go to the politics question again. josh, what i don't understand is the american people overwhelmingly support open service. is the one thing in our life that is really changed in terms of social issues. it's not like abortion issues that have taken time to change or go back and forth. this one has been a pendulum swinging directly in one direction toward open service. why is the senate behind the public on this? >> well, i think they're behind the public because they always lag the public somewhat, but also because we're in this incredibly polarized primary political climate right now going into this november election. republicans are very, very concerned, and all they're concerned about is their base. and among the base, that's probably the only area where you can find significant resistance to changing this policy. and i think you have that element of the republican party basically dictating the response. and seeing that incredible lock-step vote from republicans

today, extending even to people like susan collins who says she supports repeal but just didn't like the way that harry reid was doing. this. >> okay. so you have a vote that is way short today. when is the next chance to do this? >> i think right after they come back from the midterms. >> so what is going to happen? >> i think we'll move forward then. you know, it's going to be a little bit of a free-for-all. we don't know exactly the count is going to change. but we're still optimistic about it. that's all i'd say. we'll leave it at that. we're optimistic about it. we have to be. >> slow it be a lame duck? >> yeah, i definitely think come up in lame duck. >> josh, a lame duck? >> it will be a lame duck session. i'm far from sure this will go through or the vote will be any easier. and if it doesn't happen, i think you're talking about a bloodbath of recrimination both among gay rights advocacy groups and involving the white house for not having done enough of a heavy lift here to get this done. >> anybody going to win today? a win for anybody?

does this help harry reid, the loss today? does this help anybody for trying? >> i don't think it does. i think he wanted to help them but it doesn't. >> thanks for the analysis. when we return, let's speak of the devil. gingrich has reached new depths. we're watching "hardball with chris matthews" on msnbc. put a k on the top of every box to let people know that their cereals have healthy whole grain, and they're the right choice... (announcer) general mills makes getting whole grain an easy choice. just look for the white check. when a tornado tore through holly, colorado, air life denver took to the air... their night-vision goggles keeping them safe on a perilous flight... and powering those precision goggles--- is the only battery air life trusts: duracell. broad daylight or the darkest night... it just has to work. duracell. trusted everywhere.

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let me finish tonight with a political force that is truly

diabolic, newt gingrich. newt gingrich comes to us as. trouble, oh, we got trouble. he calls good people racist, people like supreme court justice sonia sotomayor and shirley sherrod. he doesn't beat around the bush. he calls them race i in broad daylight. with president obama he gets more vicious. he says the president has the mind of a kenyon. what is this man doing in public life? why are we living in a public square so dominated by eye of newt? die bowlcally, he speaks on my matter that will cause hatred, anger or fear, or all three. he warned this last week we are in danger of being placed under sharia law. he declared his opposition what he called any effort to impose, his word, impose, sharia on the united states, you know, arms and legs being cut off, stoning. newt barks out a message of hate and confusion and anger that would be frightening if it were